sable_twilight ([info]sable_twilight) wrote,
@ 2009-06-12 10:08:00
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Current mood: pensive

Dilemma
I have the capability of doing something that might possibly brighten the lives of three people I care about, but potentially complicate the lives of at least two other I know only distantly (one of whom I have meet and like). It also might potentially complicate the lives of the three people I care about as well.

It can all be done/worded in such a way as to not cause harm, but it might potentially cause disruption - unless the universe is headed in the direction already.

I would really like to do it. It would be neat to see if it can be done. And it's as simple as giving it an order to happen and I have faith it would happen. Might take some time, but it simply would.

But it would manipulate the path of some one's life have not interacted with and have very little knowledge about. But at the same time I can also see how it might actually help this person to expend out and reach even greater potential.

Dilemmas

Do I manipulate and interfere with other people's lives? Direct manipulation in lives I otherwise have direct contact with.

On the one hand, it can be argued that people do so all the time. CEOs, executives, politicians and other people of terrestrial power massively influence the live of numerous people they've never interacted with though their everyday decisions. Is doing so on the level I operate any different? Plus I've changed the lives of people I felt "deserved it"

On the other hand, I've (lovingly) chewed out people for similar. But then, did I really have grounds to? Since I am happy with the where those actions has lead me, even if the intervening time was a bit of a struggle. So really even then I have no ground to argue on.

And I realize I manipulate and change people lives all the time. And do so in ways I might not even realize. Little drops of change, day to day. Is being on a larger scale any different?

I think part of it is also a struggle of coming to terms with the acceptance of my own power, place and path, and wanting to use it responsibility.

And so I think on it. Thinking and carefully consideration is never a bad thing for me in my book.


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[info]enkheduanna
2009-06-12 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Any interaction that you have with another person is always filled with the potential of changing their life in some way big or small. Whether you are conscious of those changes or not will make the difference between what is perceived as manipulation and whether that manipulation is perceived as a negative or positive thing. Whether they are conscious about the interaction and the possible changes that can be enacted, or feel that you directly have been responsible for change in their life also impacts the perception of positive or negative manipulation.

Yes people manipulate one another all the time. The word in of itself implies a negative connotation. Friends being helpful really are a form of manipulation but with a positive outcome for both people involved. People (in general) feel indebted to a person who has done a nice thing for them. If you are always the person doing the nice thing, and not just doing it to be nice, that is a form of manipulation. Someday you'll just cash in on all that good deed rapport that you've built up.

It's not seen as a manipulation, because both parties are benefiting from it.

Then again, I might be somewhat paranoid....

Some could say that emotional attachment can become a form of manipulation. If person A does things to make person B happy, is that wrong of person A to do? If it makes both people happy, then it's not perceived as a wrong. If there is no reciprocation then it could lead to bitter feelings on person A's part due to always doing things to make person B happy without any return, and eventually person A feels the strain of dumping all that energy into person B without acknowledgement. Bitter, resentment, sadness. All those negative emotions build up.

I'm not even consciously attempting to explain this through a situation that I am currently going through. It could sound that way to people who know me, but it isn't intentional.

I may have veered away from the topic at hand, inadvertantly

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[info]sable_twilight
2009-06-12 06:36 pm UTC (link)
It's okay. It's good stuff to think about and consider.

Thank you.

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[info]nytemuse
2009-06-12 11:26 pm UTC (link)
Yes people manipulate one another all the time. The word in of itself implies a negative connotation. Friends being helpful really are a form of manipulation but with a positive outcome for both people involved. People (in general) feel indebted to a person who has done a nice thing for them. If you are always the person doing the nice thing, and not just doing it to be nice, that is a form of manipulation. Someday you'll just cash in on all that good deed rapport that you've built up.

It's not seen as a manipulation, because both parties are benefiting from it.

Then again, I might be somewhat paranoid....

If you're paranoid, so am I ;)

This is one of my favorite examples to students on word connotation.

Manipulation always happens, can't really be stopped, so it's stupid to make it all negative.

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[info]enkheduanna
2009-06-12 11:50 pm UTC (link)
{nods} The paranoid part is where it starts to cause you to withdraw from interacting with people because of the potential impact that you have on them. I know that what I do will cause change, at the same time being conscious of it means that I attempt to account for how things will impact those around me. Which only works while I am being logical and not emotional.

Throw emotional into the mix and there is less conscious concern over the impact of my actions on others because I am doing what I need to do (this is totally from my perspective..etc)

There are alot of places you as an individual can take all of this...it's where you stop that draws the line between not paranoid about it and paranoid about it.

Really these are just my thoughts..brain dump a la me. I don't expect people to agree with my take on it.


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[info]sophia_daniels
2009-06-12 08:47 pm UTC (link)
ambiguous... :o

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[info]sable_twilight
2009-06-12 09:12 pm UTC (link)
heh yeah

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[info]buruna_enu
2009-06-12 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Its good that you even ask yourself these things. It suggests to me that you will find a "right thing" to do here.

NOT interfering with someone's life is also changing it, as you have chosen to NOT interact, and thus, your inactive choice is still CHANGING them, by NOT prodding directly.

Indirect manipulation is no different.

Even what you do to yourself changes people you will never "meet."

A human being is a vortex of ever changing conditions coming together. THERE IS NOTHING IN ALL OF THIS UNIVERSE WHICH DOES NOT FUNCTION OUT OF CHANGE, EVOLUTION, TIME-SPACE DECAY-GROWTH.

Will you hate yourself for killing the bacteria you breath in?

As someone who is indelibly connected to and aware of the BIG PICTURE, and yet is still manifest in a ego-body space, with a specific opinion and self(s), I am ever aware of how my actions and innactions affect EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING.

I simply acknowledge, that as a piece of the Universe, I must move, and I must, once having chosen a choice, commit to it, and not regret, even if I feel it was the wrong choice in retrospect.

If I eat these M&Ms, a man in China may die. Will I deny myself action because the Butterfly may cause the Tsumani to destroy Sri Lanka?

No. Because if I don't eat the M&Ms, a woman in Detroit will surely die.

Negative change, and Death, are not bad.

Only you can make this choice.

Thank you for thinking about it, and caring.

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[info]sable_twilight
2009-06-12 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Thank you as well.

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[info]liannanshith
2009-06-12 11:06 pm UTC (link)
We are agents of change. Although I try to refrain from the heavy-handed stuff, but still do subtle good things. I have a harder time grappling with the bigger stuff.

On the flip-side, I did do something that has impacted one rather close to me and has largely changed circumstances for another I've come to know rather recently. As far as I can see, the overall good has been better off for the long-term.

Although I wonder if I, myself, was manipulated in the situation, but I don't know what to think of it looking back. It's just... strange to me.

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[info]liannanshith
2009-06-12 11:06 pm UTC (link)
And yes, I took the vague route on that.

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[info]singerofdark
2009-06-12 11:42 pm UTC (link)
I had a note until i somehow backspaced the browser back away from it. Grrrrr.......

Anyhow. Change is the name of the game. As the old saw goes no man ever crosses the same river twice..... So it boils down to why you seek to cause the change and how you are willing to cause it and whether or not you are prepared to own up to your actions and such costs from them that may come your way. Least in my books it does. And I am guessing you could answer all of those for yourself in this situation.

So decide and deal with what comes of it either way.

Jack

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[info]desert_zen
2009-06-13 12:16 am UTC (link)
Honestly? I'm not sure if I'd go there.

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[info]elegantblackcat
2009-06-13 12:49 am UTC (link)
Go ahead and do it. If things don't work out, you can say that it sounded like a good idea at the time!

Ok, I jest. Seriously, take the path you yourself most truly desire. Act from a position of enlightened self-interest. Keep in mind that the decision to do nothing could also backfire if you withhold action for the wrong reasons.

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[info]ariannasmoon
2009-06-13 02:26 am UTC (link)
I like elegantblackcat's answer. I have had this argument because I started out as wiccan and everything was about trying not to manipulate or cause harm. I think that you've already answered yourself. Change is going to happen in one way or the other. The future is fluid which is why divination is very dependent upon the choices we make. The fact that you think to consider your actions before you jump and do it is a sign of responsible energy work. In the end you just have to choose the direction that you think is the right one and let the universe sort it out.

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[info]teal_cuttlefish
2009-06-13 03:28 am UTC (link)
The Wiccan Rede doesn't say you can't do anything that would harm another; it asks you to be aware of the harm you do. Everything has the potential to harm -- just think about it. "An it harm none, do what thou wilt."

Ceremonial Magicians, though, say "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will."

And the Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It sounds like what you can do here would make life better for several people, and make an unknown change in one or two other people's lives. Unless the outcome is terrifically negative for some reason, I would be inclined to throw that switch.

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[info]parasina
2009-06-16 12:18 am UTC (link)
Actually, good job ;)

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